RE: Iraq??? | from ronAug 20 2005 - 11:18
ooh, dk, you got me! you got me there, bro. good one.
ooh, dk, you got me! you got me there, bro. good one.
everything about this thread sucks. it sucks somebody's brother is going to war, it sucks the same person's brother belongs to the military machinery in the first place, it sucks we have to read this stuff on a music message board (what the hell are blogs for then??), it sucks that those of us who didn't vote for him get to hear all about it over and over again, it sucks we are stuck with Bush for another 3+ years and it REALLY sucks that one of my favorite places is once again a political platform.
please stop already.
Now THEM'S is fightin words.
Not as overrated as Pearl Jam.
Lincoln was overrated. he is praised for doing something that he SHOULD have done.
Rally 'round the crawdaddies!
Lincoln was criticized for his strategies, but that's very different from being criticized for going to war to save the Union. Seven states had seceded before a shot was fired, and it was the South who fired first after Lincoln sent supplies to
Fort Sumter, which was not an act of aggression but was interpreted as such by the South.
I have to agree with Uncommoner on Lincoln... He sent thousands of men to their deaths and was criticized for it on both sides.
the simplest solution is often the right one. oil, world dominance, whatever. regardless of what the war is REALLY "about," it will always be cast in terms of "democracy" or "freedom" or "liberty." and to Uncommoner, i was singing that tune after 9/11. but most people didn't because they were made to feel guilty for criticizing the war in the aftermath of what was inevitable with such a foreign policy.
Prove me wrong, numbnuts.
Maybe you should read a book or two on Lincoln and more than one article on the Iraq War... "Hindsight is great but late," says I.
fucking shut up already. last time i checked this was a forum for a band. i mean really... getting a tad off-topic is one thing, but come on....
Saddam was shooting at aircraft that were violating his airspace,
The criticism Lincoln faced was from a newspaper in his own state that disagreed with his stance toward slavery: "The Register wasted few words: 'The Pres-ident's policy of emancipation is perfectly absurd.'" There was very little question about whether or not to prevent the South from seceding. We invaded Iraq because of non-existent WMDs, the most trumped up excuse in history and an embarrassment that Colin Powell will never live down. You'll need to explain who "they" are and what links "they" discovered. That information isn't available to the rest of the free world. Unless you're watching FoxNews or reading The Weekly Standard. Here's what The Washington Post had to say: "The Sept. 11 commission reported yesterday that it has found no 'collaborative relationship' between Iraq and al Qaeda, challenging one of the Bush administration's main justifications for the war in Iraq."
Sorry to accidentally type your name in the last message, Unaverage.
Actually they found extensive links between Iraq and Al Qaeda. And if you study history in any depth you will find that Lincoln was highly criticized by many northerners (both senators and commoners) for the Civil War. As far as setting up democracy goes... it is just the only option we are left with after removing a dangerous dictator and not the reason we invaded the country. Not to mention that Saddam was shooting at our aircraft nearly every day since the end of the first Gulf War.
No difference between Afghanistan and Iraq? Let's see, a heavily theocratic government as opposed to a secular one. Actual links between Al Qaeda and the Taliban as opposed to no link between Hussein and Al Qaeda. And who criticized Lincoln for trying to preserve the Union? Members of the Confederacy? And the Domino Theory was the most laughable one in history until this new version--establish a democratic government in Iraq and the rest will follow. Why not just ask our allies in Saudi Arabia to set up a democracy? Fat chance.
It seems that we take this country for granted and think things will stay the same way they are no matter what goes on elsewhere in the world. I agree, it seems the average person here is oversimplifying the war. No one was singing that tune after 9/11... I don't see a whole lot of difference between Iraq and Afghanistan.
Of course, most wars are highly criticized... The Civil War for one... (imagine being Lincoln at that time)... World War II... (would have been a shorter war had we been wise enough to get fully involved before Pearl Harbor)... Vietnam... (I'll admit, hindsight shows that war was a mistake but at the time the fear of communism spreading was a major motivator)...
I find the over-simplified explanations of the conflict in Iraq to be just that...over-simplified. There is so much more than what is being reported in the mainstream press. This is by no means saying that I am in favor of the conflict, but perhaps we are all supporting the need for our government to secure our way of life. It is impossible to live without using a petroleum product. It extends far beyond your automobile. Plastics, computers, electricity, etc...
Life as we have grown accustomed to is about to change. It is time we all begin making better choices and begin changing how our world operates. Adaptation and evolution is the only way we can continue existing.
For a sober look at the impending mess: http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net
An interesting read: "Twilight in the Desert", by Matthew R. Simmons.
To close, I would like to keep this relevant and ask that IDAHO please release the next album to help us cope with the current state of the world. Jeff, give us the pleasant diversion we need!
Can I have an "Amen"?
Peak Oil, Resource Wars, and the London Bombings
Added: (Thu Jul 21 2005)
While Tony Blair supports the US’s ‘war on terror’, that by Dick Cheney’s own admission will last indefinitely, innocent people are dying on the streets of London. Why?
We are being told that we are winning the ‘war on terror’, but by any yardstick, the opposite is true. Sheldon Rampton, in an excellent piece in Counterpunch, details the abysmal failure of this so called war. From Afganistan to Iraq, if we really are fighting terrorism, then our political and military leaders are grossly incompetent.
In another article (8.7.05) Noam Chompsky says, “If the United States can maintain its control over Iraq, with the world's second largest known oil reserves, and right at the heart of the world's major energy supplies, that will enhance significantly its strategic power and influence over its major rivals in the tripolar world that has been taking shape for the past 30 years: US-dominated North America, Europe, and Northeast Asia, linked to South and Southeast Asia economies.
Chompsky states. “the NIC (The US government’s Intelligence think tank) warned that "Iraq and other possible conflicts in the future could provide recruitment, training grounds, technical skills and language proficiency for a new class of terrorists who are 'professionalised' and for whom political violence becomes an end in itself."
Does anyone believe for one moment that we are in Iraq for any reason other then the oil? If it is about the oil, and ‘Peak oil’ pessimists like myself believe that we are facing a world of dwindling energy (i.e. oil) supplies….soon; then the actions of our political leaders become crystal clear and frightening logical. The implications are also becoming inescapable. Expect more terrorism on our streets, more foreign wars, and accept a constant eroding of our civil liberties in pursuit of the resources necessary to maintain our high energy, high consumption lifestyles.
While to many a complete reassessment of our high consumption lifestyles is impossible, and to some “not negotiable”, to me this represents a complete failure of political leadership and a lack of collective imagination. We have a stark choice, either find other ways of re-creating our lifestyle and all that means, or acquiesce to fighting ever worsening, never ending resource wars, and all that means.
For more see: www.livingonthecusp.org
ron, i'll show BUSH a "well-oiled" power muscle ...
not that we really need to.
Sounds like you've already started, Ron. :)
good Lord, don't get me started on bush or the war. ashley, i feel for you. most of the military folks over there don't want to be there. i'm sick of seeing the goddamned "support our troops" stickers ONLY because the only true way to support them is to BRING THEM THE FUCK HOME!!! we have no business over there other than flexing power muscles and oil. come to think of it, it's nothing but a business move. that's the main problem (of many) with bush is that he's a fucking failed business man. FUCK! don't get me started. ashley, the best to you, your bro, and your family. Lord willing, he will be home safe and sound before you know it... him and the rest of US military presence.
Oh also the most italian people agree with you, Iraq war is only a waste of human people .Also we in Italy are under a FOOL government .Our premier is a bush's slave but at the same time he is a great fool!!!!
Surely we as a italian people pay all of this in the next future.I, as italian, can only hope that the next election something changes.
God bless our and the whole people who avoid the wars.
Ok, I don't even know you, but totally agree--BUSH sucks. I don't know anyone who was sent over there either, but it pisses me off just the same. Especially as I watch BUSH parading around his ranch on vacation...the man has no shame... If I knew my brother was going I would feel as you do, so I wish him (and you) the best. Hope he returns safely and quickly...
Dude, email me I don't have your info...
best to your bro - tell him to keep his head down.
Hang in there ashley
i meant to type "and j.b. you crazy fella all the best to you and dale ..."
sorry, my spelling is bad and wacky in this state.
goodnight all... and peace be with you...
okay, so i haven't been on this board in close to 3 years probably but i have to say that it totally sucks that my little brother is going over to iraq this wednesday. i have so may mixed feelings about this whole deal .. and in any sense, i'm sure you guys here will light me up. seeing the depths to which this board as gone in the past, i hope you make it good - god damn it... i'm in the middle of making a fucking box-set-mix-cd set for him with a special message and you know there will be a ton of jeff and john's work contained therein (I D A H O, for sure! ;) ). .. And YES, i have been drinkin'... fuck you all you american cock suckers who voted for BUSH. sorry all you european fellows and ladies.. it's not my fault.
all i really wanted to say was to send my regards to jeff (how's l.a. treating you?) and john (how's n.y. treating you, you dog!?)
i'm sorry to go off like this, but it's been way to long guys and you were way to nice to me being a small town boy from wi (see inside of w.w.y.a.n.t.m retro spective). i hope i can see you live again (I D A H O). you guys have a place to crash anytime you make it through our town again...
jeff i wish you all the best. and you you crazy fella .. all the best to you and dale. you are the best ever....
now pray that my bro comes home w/o a scratch.
good night cats...
ashley b. the wi dude
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