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RE: RHP and life | from CodreanuSep 24 2005 - 23:37

Sorry, JB, that brilliant effusion was not from me. Nor would you catch me name-dropping Deleuze or his ilk -- the only french post-structualist whom I find to have anything original or interesting to say is Baudrillard... particularly his essay Simulacra and Tragedy: The Apotheosis of Internet Poker.

RE: RHP and life | from JB Sep 24 2005 - 22:17

nice work Codreanu, I believe that is the 1st refference to Gilles Deleuze on this message board. Congrats!

Thanks to this last exchange things are starting to seem almost normal...


It's the unofficial signs of the apocalypse...

RE: RHP and life | from CodreanoSep 24 2005 - 21:35


RE: RHP and life | from St PelagiusSep 24 2005 - 21:34


RE: RHP and life | from Alex NiedtSep 24 2005 - 21:32

Coddy, I hope you wiped it down after. Cleanliness is next to Codliness!

RE: RHP and life | from CodreanuSep 24 2005 - 21:30

Fuck U! I KNOW her ass like a map of my bedroom. And it IS good. She bent over for me while I sang of Deleuze and his Thousand Plateaus.
And that stake! WELLL! that stake, yes, THAT stake. You should see what I taught her to do with that! I haven't walked or talked the same since!

RE: RHP and life | from Alex NiedtSep 24 2005 - 21:26

Nah, Coddy, he saw my ass. My boils look better in hotpants than she does.

RE: RHP and life | from CodreanuSep 24 2005 - 21:24

Somebody really has to tell that motherfucker that the wriggling ain't a fish, it's just he saw Sarah Michelle Gellar in hotpants with her pretty liddle ass all stuck out in front of him and is experiencing a normal male reaction. Hoo HA!

RE: RHP and life | from St pelagius of the Marianas Current Church Of Flowing HumilitySep 24 2005 - 21:20

No life, only cod in your pants! LOVE THE COD!

RE: RHP and life | from CFSep 24 2005 - 21:06


Alex-I agree...I usually always agree with you.

RE: RHP and life | from Alex NiedtSep 15 2005 - 22:04

Hmmm...sure doesn't make me happy, but it definitely "calms me down."

RE: RHP and life | from EricSep 15 2005 - 08:20

CF, I absolutely agree with you here. I remeber the first time I was struck by RHPs, I saw the video for '24' and was blown away by how honest it was. For the first time I heard a young musician produce beautiful, delicate music with touching chord changes. Also I had never heard a musician so completely spill his guts out in his music. I really got into their stuff along with Idaho.

I constantly asked myself the same question: why does this sad music make me happy?

RE: RHP and life | from CodreanuSep 09 2005 - 00:03

More details (inc. track listing) at pitchfork.com:


RE: RHP and life | from JaySep 08 2005 - 11:23

Based on the live versions Kozelek has been playing, this new SKM CD will be incredible. His cover of "Truckers Atlas" is revelatory. It made me pull out the Modest Mouse disc with the original version to find out how I had obviously missed such a great song on my own.

RE: RHP and life | from Mark KSep 08 2005 - 11:19

Honestly... Doesnt anyone ever talk about online blackjack anymore ?

RE: RHP and life | from ChrisSep 08 2005 - 10:55

Anybody see that Kozelek's new SKM project is made up entirely of Modest Mouse songs?

Not very intrigued by that idea, pretty much on any level.

In general, his previous covers were resurrections of songs that nobody took all that seriously. He'd find the poignancy in an AC/DC or McCartney tune, strip away the progressions, and ta da, a minor masterpiece.

I can't say that Modest Mouse's material deserves a closer reading like that. There's nothing there but the sheen and the "cool tunage" vibe. They don't suck, but they are vacuous.

Mark, what's the story?

RE: RHP and life | from CodreanuAug 24 2005 - 13:04

AMC, RHP, Codeine, Bluetile Lounge, etc. = Sadcore, Old Skool :)

RE: RHP and life | from ChrisAug 24 2005 - 12:44

That's what makes it important to get the label right. Obviously, sadcore or emo aren't sufficient, but perhaps miserabilist is. AMC, Idaho and RHP could all be labeled that, IF "miserabilist" describes sad, generally downtempo music that nonetheless is reaching for the light.

You know, people shouldn't really let labels be the final arbiter of whether they like something or not. That should be the first thing you look at -- then go on to other, more nuanced descriptors.

It's all about the code: "Big Star" is code for good, and "rap metal" means b-a-d.

RE: RHP and life | from Prozac NationAug 24 2005 - 09:35

Okay, but if I follow your logic, someone who doesn't like sadcore who read the review of AMC mentioned previously would not have checked out the band. I just think it's reductive to use the types of labels that proliferate if a thorough description of what they're doing would be better. That doesn't mean other bands won't be used as points of comparison, but labels tend to confuse. I would never lump AMC, Idaho, and RHP in to one category, for example.

RE: RHP and life | from CFAug 24 2005 - 08:22

That's my point too, Chris. Actually, I discovered Idaho because the CMJ "told" me I'd like them if I liked RHP or AMC- they used to have that part of their reviews that was "RIYL"- and it was a review of the Palms EP. So, I took a chance, luckily, that this Idaho would be sonething I would enjoy. How right they were. Same goes for a label- I was more apt to trust Caroline records at the time; one could say similar things about 4AD as an example- the whole genre encompassed by Ivo Watts Russell has a certain element to it that I trust. It's similar to trusting one friend's taste over antoher's.

RE: RHP and life | from ChrisAug 24 2005 - 06:48

Prozac -

You're not ruining the thread; it's a legitimate question. But I think you're off base about why people categorize music. It's not a crutch, it's a matter of convenience and getting to the point. I mean, if a band is labeled "prog rock," that's only going to help me understand at least *something* about them. What's wrong with that?

I, and many others in this thread, just want that label to be accurate. I think the discussion has been more about how sadcore and emo have gotten confused, and thus less useful as categories. And that's interesting, in a way.

You're right about how difficult it is to take a band on its own merits, etc. So, that begs a question: Why should it be? And why should a journalist (a little cynical in your use of quotes around the word, aren't you?) waste precious column inches -- not to mention my time -- trying to describe a band, when it would be much easier and more efficient to simply place that band in one category or another, just to get the conversation started?

Consider this: You're in a noisy bar, and you want to tell a friend about a great new band you've discovered. Do you spend 15 minutes trying to describe their infinitely brilliant music (while he's draining a PBR), or do you say they're post rock, sadcore, or any one of another 1,000 labels? Which gets to the point more effectively? Which holds up better in the clamor? Most importantly: Which is more likely to get your friend's attention so you can REALLY talk about this band?

And AMC are not, and never were, sadcore.

RE: RHP and life | from Prozac NationAug 24 2005 - 05:30

At the risk of ruining this thread, I'm curious why it's so important to categorize music? It seems to me terms such as "sadcore," "emo," etc. are crutches used by "journalists" to make their jobs easier. It's much more difficult to take each band on its own merits and describe what they do on their own terms.

RE: RHP and life | from JR OlssonAug 23 2005 - 23:41

Yes, Alex, that's hilarious.

RE: RHP and life | from CodreanuAug 23 2005 - 15:09

Speaking of AMC, I found "Mean Mark Eitzel Gets Fat" -- self-released cassette from '81 -- in the form of shoddy 64kbps wma files, on Soulseek the other day. Dreadful.

RE: RHP and life | from Alex NiedtAug 23 2005 - 13:32

That's kinda funny considering that the term "sadcore" was first used in a review to describe AMC.

RE: RHP and life | from JR OlssonAug 23 2005 - 03:47

I don't want to be the one that ruins this topic, I'll leave that to Prozac, me and Pantsy...

I would not consider American Music Club "sadcore".

Codeine on the other hand, Idaho's 'Year after Year', the very first RHP release and Low too, they sound very sadcore-ish. Atleast that's the sound I think of when I hear the term "sadcore".

But it's kind of hard to decide what is and what is not. For example, I have a friend that calls this music EMO. While emo to me are bands like Appleseed Cast, Jimmy Eat World, Elliott etc etc.

RE: RHP and life | from JR OlssonAug 18 2005 - 08:34

And what about Raki? That's ratpoison. I'll never go to Greece again.

I wonder what Mr. Eitzel ate and drank when he recorded The Ugly American.

RE: RHP and life | from CodreanuAug 16 2005 - 21:05

JR, you will find souvlaki peculairly edible after a glass, or two, of ouzo (w/ water).

P.s. Bibiana is the Patron Saint of those w/ hangover.

RE: RHP and life | from CFAug 16 2005 - 19:06

me, Souvlaki is also the name of a brilliant slowdive album-JR is being funny.

RE: RHP and life | from meAug 16 2005 - 15:38

and the significance of that statement is???.....

funny, but I don't get it...

RE: RHP and life | from JR OlssonAug 15 2005 - 10:57

Hello CF. I am in Greece right now and it smells goddamn souvlaki everywhere. Disgusting. That's all they eat.

RE: RHP and life | from CFAug 15 2005 - 07:30


Agree about Radiohead- Pablo Honey and maybe The Bends could have been Britpop, but I think it was more of a timing thing (mid 90's) that caused the lumping, They are way ahead of the Coldplay-esque imitators. I think Chris Martin recently said that they were "merely lapping at their heels and would never reach their genius".
I always felt Suede were also too talented (at least Butler/Anderson to be in that category (have you heard the tears yet?)Same with Blur (who have become more experimental) post graham leaving. I think Pulp is the epitome of Britpop- and brilliant as well.

As for the Gallagher brothers, you are so right. They thought they were the second coming and never moved past the simplicity of Def. maybe or Morning Glory. I think both were great pop records- but then it got old real fast. I saw them in '94 at a real small venue in NYC and Liam said, "You don't know how lucky you f***ers are".

RE: RHP and life | from RipAug 12 2005 - 20:25

Hey.....lay of Julie Doiron. I met her at the Iota in DC while she was in Gordon Downie's side project. She was super cool and introduced us to Gord.

RE: RHP and life | from ChrisAug 12 2005 - 10:37

The "miserablism" tag sounds right.

I've never been able to read or hear the term sadcore without noting the second part -- "core." And anything-core sets me up to believe that the music -- whatever its point of view -- is going to have an air of extremism about it. Thus, sadcore is sad music that's also heavy sounding. The tempos are probably slow, and the arrangements are usually chilly and/or difficult.

To me, that sounds like Swans, or Smog, or Joy Division. Some of their records leave me feeling like I can't lift my head.

And I just don't get that feeling, ever, from RHP, Eitzel, Idaho, Slint, Jurado, etc. This leads me to believe that the descriptor "miserablism" -- music about being miserable, but not necessarily miserable sounding -- could be apt.

Is sadcore dead? I don't think so -- as long as there are bands intent on presenting a real downer worldview (hello, nu metal?). But as a market share, it seems like that music is past its prime.

Regarding Radiohead as Britpop: Sure, they got lumped into that category at the beginning. So did Pulp, Suede, Blur, and dozens of other bands of various backgrounds. Obviously they fought it off. Not so obvious is that they made it work for them, commercially and critically. Whereas Oasis never were smart enough to think past the next pint and the next nicked chord, Radiohead were focused on the future. Now there's not a lot of Britpop around, but there sure are bands emulating the Radiohead stance. And hardly any of them aspire to make a dent in the U.S.

RE: RHP and life | from Alex NiedtAug 12 2005 - 08:25

Yeah, "Smokey" is my favorite song from Old Ramon for sure. CF, do you have Slowdive's Pygmalion? I'm so glad I finally got it on eBay, even if it was over $30.

Another CD I'd add to the list of great sadcore albums is Cindy (or Cynthia) Dall's first album. Her second one sucks, but the first is just chillingly beautiful in a jarring, frightening, desolate kind of way. It's perfect for a bleak winter day. In reviews she seems to be referred to often as Smog's sidekick since she sang on a couple of his albums (he also sings on hers), but she is SOOOOOO much better in my opinion.

RE: RHP and life | from CFAug 12 2005 - 07:30

I'm glad I started this! Codreanu, your assessment of miserablism seems on target for me. Alex, again my musical tastes align with yours- I bought a Smog CD once on a recomendation and never played it again. And I just don't like poor Elliott.

Interesting michael. I love your stuff anyway.

Prozac-I think there's more constructive ways of "lighting fires"...but welcome back.

DD- I do love you, I just don't desire you.

I also have to add that the original song I was talking about here, Smokey from Old Ramon, is definitely sadcore; but now that I think about it- it really doesn't fit on that album. It's much more Rollercoaster material.
I'm gonna listen to Slowdive today. I love Souvlaki.

RE: RHP and life | from Prozac NationAug 12 2005 - 06:42

See what a little tough love can do? I was just sick of all the usual bullshit on this board and thought I might be able to light a fire under someone. Glad to see a few of you still have a pulse. SAdcore is over, but everything comes to an end. and as far as the original post is concerned: Sadness is an elemental part of human nature (and all higher primates), and even if you're not feeling sad, if someone has the ability to evoke a sense of melancholy from you through music or art or literature, it connects you to what is most vitally human about you. The ability to relate to sadness when one is not sad is what makes one compassionate. I'd like to think it's what all of us who come here have in common. I'm genuinely sorry if I upset anyone, but I was hoping the presence of one overt asshole might rally the troops.

RE: RHP and life | from Alex NiedtAug 12 2005 - 01:30

Oh yeah, Elliot Smith and Smog are always lumped into sadcore, especially Smog it seems, though neither artists' music really does it for me. And I really think Dakota Suite should be classified that way. Some of Hooson's songs are as definitively sadcore as it gets. And I agree about Spokane, Codreanu. If someone asked you to play them something in the genre, you really couldn't go wrong with any of Spokane's songs. "The Proud Graduates" is probably one of the saddest, most beautiful songs I've ever heard.

RE: RHP and life | from CodreanuAug 11 2005 - 22:51

"This article needs to be cleaned up to conform to a higher standard of quality."

Anyone like to take a shot?


RE: RHP and life | from CodreanuAug 11 2005 - 22:20

Maybe, it comes down to personality -- the oft noted distiction between taxonomic "lumpers" and "splitters". As a "lumper", I posit a certain "quintessence" characterised by: morose introversion, harrowing themes, traumatised lyrics etc. and expressed with an often ruthless consistancy that goes well beyond both 80's style "mope rock" (Cure, Smiths/Morrissey, Durutti Column, and, more recently, My Favorite) and generally sad dark-night-of-the-soul albums laden w/ despond and atmosphere (Tram, Beck's "Sea Changes", Elliott Smith, Arco, Jurado's "Ghost of David", Dylan's "Time Out of Mind", late Pink Floyd etc.). While I certainly regard the bands mentioned by Michael as something of a template (to which I would add mid-period Smog and (maybe) Dakota Suite) I would not hesitate to include later artists such as Carissa's Wierd (perhaps, my favorite band) and Spokane as exemplers of the genre. Ideally, I would prefer a more seemly term w/ greater extension like "Miserablism" :) encompassing said bands as well as fragile slowcore outfits like Empress and the autistic electronica of The Remote Viewer.

RE: RHP and life | from mplasterAug 11 2005 - 21:06

is it just me, or is the actual category of "Sadcore" only available to a very small list of artists, most of which were most active in the 90's. it's seems as if some people like to throw the term around rather loosely these days, not really taking into account a certain "something" (which i will admit, is rather elusive) that makes an artist truly

RE: RHP and life | from CodreanuAug 11 2005 - 19:56

Alex, Doiron bores me as well -- there are only a couple of songs I find distinguishable. I enjoy that one (name eludes me) with the lyrics "...everybodys' pretty when she smiles / Me, I'm only pretty when I cry..."

I regard BHP's first album, and much of the third, as, definitionally, Sadcore. Likewise, the earlier Arab Strap material. Were you referring to "Mad for Sadness"? Then we are in agreement. Check out the (Philophobia) videos from their website.

"Afternoon Soaps" (WMV, 6.44 MB) -- remixed, not as somber as the album track, with dancier cheesy beats brought to the fore... but still maudlin.


"Here We Go" (WMV, 7.62 MB)


More: Paul Godwin, Clairvoyants (?), The Black Swans...

RE: RHP and life | from DDAug 11 2005 - 19:55

Oh Chris!!!! Look what you've started..a great big debate. I can agree with all you said, except maybe the not liking ANY female part..you love me don't you Kevin??!!

RE: RHP and life | from Krazy KozAug 11 2005 - 19:53

I prefer southpaws to right-handed pitchers myself.

RE: RHP and life | from Alex NiedtAug 11 2005 - 19:10

Man...out of all those I've heard of Shannon Wright, Julie Doiron, Black Heart Procession, and Arab Strap. I've owned CDs from BHP and Doiron (she just bores me honestly), and I wouldn't call them sadcore. But I don't even know what my definition is exactly. I remember hearing some Shannon Wright soundclips and thinking they were pretty good. Arab Strap...I had their live CD and thought it was okay. It's an interesting listening experience...very different, but doesn't bode well for repeating listening for me.

RE: RHP and life | from CodreanuAug 11 2005 - 18:12

...Shannon Wright, Cerrato, Julie Doiron, Timonium... or sumthin' :)

RE: RHP and life | from CodreanuAug 11 2005 - 18:07

...Savoy Grand, Fred Thomas, Small Town Boredom, Elizabeth Anka Vajagic...

RE: RHP and life | from CodreanuAug 11 2005 - 16:56

...Lovers, Soltero, Remora (?), Kepler...

RE: RHP and life | from CodreanuAug 11 2005 - 16:52

...T.W. Wlash, Barzin, Great Lake Swimmers, Sophia...

RE: RHP and life | from CodreanuAug 11 2005 - 16:43

Sadcore dead? Good God, has anyone heard the latest Picastro album? Let's see... Black Heart Procession, Lazarus, Havergal, Empress/The Remote Viewer, Adrian Crowley, Shearwater, Flashpapr, Harper Lee, etc. Not to mention cognate purveyors of melancholia: Xiu Xiu, Casiotone for the Painfuly Alone, Sir, Ida, Khonnor, and Parker and Lily.

Arab Strap are set to release an album in October. Please, not another, incoherent, fickle gather of lacklustre material after their last botch of an album.

Oh, for another "Philophobia".. only with more brood and less prurience. :)

And speaking of Arab Strap, what about the new Malcolm Middleton?

"Burst Noel"

("Last year I got knives for Christmas/Stayed at home and no one missed us/Lying on the bathroom floor /I don’t want to ho-ho-ho no more//No one knows that I’m not well/As I stare in awe at this burst Noel/Lights burning from the street in/I know I’ll spend this season greeting//When good King Wenceslas looked out/Everything was fucked and I was just about/To carve the turkey and watch Eastenders /Because they’re my friends and my friends are strangers now.")

RE: RHP and life | from Pantsy McDoodlesAug 11 2005 - 16:31

wow. this has turned into one of the more productive posts in recent memory. Kudos! congratulate yourselves, folks! all hope is not lost.

except for you, Prozac. you're a butt-headed crumb bum and your penis is unnaturally thin.

RE: RHP and life | from CFAug 11 2005 - 16:19

Agreed Alex. Maybe they are yet to be heard? Any new band I find myself listening to doesn't really fit the mold. Although it's not really important, I think you'd agree, to classify; It could be our definition needs adjusting. It reminds me of a discussion I had recenlty about what was Britpop ( Pulp yes; Radiohead, no). I would say SWS does qualify; Idaho hasn't in a while- I think that transition started around Alas. Of course, I still find it amazingly beautiful.

RE: RHP and life | from CFAug 11 2005 - 16:11

Great point, Chris. That nihlism in the Wall is almost unbearable. I do love Joy Division, though, and some of that is so incredibly bleak.

RE: RHP and life | from Alex NiedtAug 11 2005 - 16:09

I agree Chris. Take AMC's Everclear for instance...totally dark, depressing, etc., but there's a kind of passionate "struggle for survival" underneath it all. That's what I'd guess draws a lot of people into sadcore-ish stuff.

Does anyone else think sadcore is basically dead and has been for a long time? I don't really consider IDAHO's current music sadcore. Eitzel's last album wasn't exactly sadcore. Sun Kil Moon sure as hell wasn't. I don't think Old Ramon really was either. AMC's last...I guess. Low? I don't know what they are. Spokane will probably always be "classic" sad/slowcore. I don't know if people consider SWS sadcore, but I do. And his lyrics are the only I can think of that are still VERY depressing.

It just seems that the big names in the genre have all moved on.

RE: RHP and life | from ChrisAug 11 2005 - 14:13

Agree with CF. I'm sick of this board giving itself over to people who just want to break balls. Kinda ironic, innit, on a site dedicated to some deeply felt and peace-seeking art.

So Prozac, fuck right off. And stay fucked off.

As for RHP and why they're enjoyable despite the seemingly overwhelming downer, well, consider this: Kozelek's music is passionate about being down. It's resolute, intent, full of energy.

No matter how slow or woebegone those songs sound, there is still a strength and a carry-on message in them. A song like "Ohio" gets me smacking the steering wheel because of its small, tough truth. Yes, it's sad, but it's not giving up.

To me, nearly unlistenable depressing music is something like late-period Pink Floyd. Who would want to go on after hearing something like The Wall?: "You can pretty much pack it in, kids, 'cause Roger says there's no future." Yech.

I always thought it was odd that while that band was condemning sadistic teachers and drug-addled rock stars, they themselves were leading wholly self-indulgent lives and, essentially, bullying their audience. There's something oddly fascistic about the Floyd during those years, I'm afraid.

RE: RHP and life | from Alex NiedtAug 11 2005 - 13:50

Out of the three, I'd definitely guess Eitzel.

RE: RHP and life | from CFAug 11 2005 - 13:49

Prozac, start taking more of it. The ironic part of your hatred is you know nothing about me or my life or income or lack of desire for ANY female, you idiot. This is what makes this board suck- I was curious about peoples' opinion on sadcore, period. I don't need your criticism of others' lives. Either STFU or do yourself in and leave us all alone.

Now, I think it's Mark.

RE: RHP and life | from adamAug 11 2005 - 12:08

eitzel by a gin blossom

RE: RHP and life | from AnalystAug 11 2005 - 12:01

And also, who's the most miserable, jeff, Mark Koz or Mark Eitzel?

RE: RHP and life | from AnalystAug 11 2005 - 11:59

wow guys! So who thinks jeff is:
'fairly well-adjusted and reasonably happy with life'?

RE: RHP and life | from Prozac NationAug 11 2005 - 11:54

You're right. I'm sorry. I'm just bitter about the recent amputations.

RE: RHP and life | from JAug 11 2005 - 11:20

Prozac, why would saying: "Though far from being wealthy and perfect, I am also a happy well-rounded and rather fortunate individual" mean that I have a life that is so great, and that I'm also a pussie?

Why's it considered somehow cool to have had a tough and painful and sad and miserable life? And why are you so aggressive man?

In fact, it's guys like you that bring people's lives down into the murk and misery in which you probably live, and which you think makes you 'cool'.

In fact, would jeff himself have had a miserable, sad life? I'd imagine him as probably describing himself as fairly well-adjusted and reasonably happy with life.

RE: RHP and life | from Yuppie ScumAug 11 2005 - 08:58

That wasn't very nice. True, but not very nice.

RE: RHP and life | from Prozac NationAug 11 2005 - 08:52

Or, and maybe you haven't had time to think about his since your lives are so great, you might both be pussies.

RE: RHP and life | from JAug 11 2005 - 08:16

Prozac, your a prick! I'm with you, CF. Though far from being wealthy and perfect, I am also a happy well-rounded and rather fortunate individual - who happens to enjoy what some may label "sadcore". My girlfriend calls it slash-your-wrist music and makes fun of it, but I love it, even though it probably doesn't really apply to my life as much as it does for some.

In fact, I only really enjoy this music when I'm happy and everything's normal. I stop listening to it when I'm depressed. So maybe the key is that we are able to appreciate such beautifully sad music because we enjoy it critically and somewhat objectively whilst also being able to plug into the emotions and pains it portrays, whilst retaining our own inner peace and happiness.

Perhaps, ironically, others can't appreciate "sadcore" cause they're too depressed and maladjusted

RE: RHP and life | from Prozac NationAug 11 2005 - 07:31

Actually, CF, you got me thinking. I make a good six figure salary, I own a Porsche and a BMW, I have a beautiful wife and great kids, a really hot Asian mistress, and more friends than I need. Why do I love listnening to RHP so much? Maybe it's because Kozelek and I are both such assholes.

RE: RHP and life | from edAug 11 2005 - 07:03


RE: RHP and life | from CFAug 11 2005 - 06:43

You are so clever! Congratulations!

RE: RHP and life | from Prozac NationAug 11 2005 - 06:40

I'm a a big fan of et al. Do you know when the new album will be out?

sadcore | from CFAug 11 2005 - 06:28

I was listening to Old Ramon yesterday on a long drive through New England, and I've re-decided that "Smokey" is a complete masterpiece. This got me thinking further: what makes me connect to this beautifully sad music? I am not generally depressed, I have a good job, a cool place to live, a real neat social life....and the music I listen to is tapped into the misery of the cosmos. My general response to people who criticize it as "depressing"; is that I find it uplifting-but I think a better description is "completing"- it "fixes" me...although I'm not sure what is broken. I do think that there is something in the words and music of Mark, Jeff, et al that is missing elsewhere. Your thoughts?

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