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RE: WTC | from adamSep 21 2001 - 07:33

the soul is a tick

RE: WTC | from michelSep 20 2001 - 16:48

I feel the need to add something here as a european guy who pleads for peace always.
Like Sylvian said, humanity is the key issue, and i agree on much he says, on the other hand extremists thoughts and acts, whether they're derived from envying the wests materialism or america's leading role as (the only) superpower and subsequently their interventions -basicly stooled on gaining or securing western economical intrests are to be annihilated. Having said that, i'm sure it will not happen with nuking, or even bombing places where mainly innocent people will die. This would just evoke more hatred and grow more anti western feelings amongst the poor on this planet, who happen to be in a region where Islam is the main belief.
This disaster certainly brings forth a whole new perspective on our so-called "first world". All Muslims in our civilized societies are potential terrorists all of a sudden, and if we're not carefull with that, we're creating them right on that spot. The easiest thing to do is to turn tables and see how you would feel when you're spit at day in day out, when you're schools are burnt down or family gets threatened. Did anyone think of the possibility that that just might have been the reason for this attack and create a world wide antipathy towards the west in the west also?
Bottom line is I suppose there is a very, very complex situation presently, which was there all along anyway, but was looked away from too long a time. It has to be looked upon with great carefulness and understanding for the Muslim belief. That's hard, I know, a friend asked me, if an Afghan raped and killed you're mother and girlfriend to gain anything in the name of Allah, how would you look upon Afghans? I must admit that my first answer to that question represented exactly the way we felt when we saw the planes hit the twin towers and the pentagon: kill 'em all. I would even be willing to terrorize for the rest of my life, because what else reason would I have to live for?
I think many people in the middle east and elsewhere can feel the same way about the west, esspecially america: they raped the land and killed their families -these unbelievers- in order to secure their needs. If not, they're definately not happy about how the west confronts them politicaly and treats them like second rate people. Gladly the vast majority is sane, peaceful and would never turn to violence whatever happens, let alone terrorize. We can not rule that out! Still, a great number abroad somewhere can be triggered off easily when another 'wrong' overcomes them somewhere in a forgotten part of the world.
I think it's way too late to be completely safe in the west from last week onwards. There's a war, sure, but it is to be fought at intelligence, we've had the cold war, this one's so hot you would rather stay far from it. I don't feel a war against terrorism can ever be won though, I really don't.
We will slowly see more and more participants joining this so called holy war, certainly after an 'unjust' military retaliation by the west.
Well, I hope I'm a pessimist, but most of my friend think I'm not...

RE: WTC | from DBSep 20 2001 - 11:29

I'm afraid of Americans
I'm afraid I can't help it

RE: WTC | from King GeorgeSep 19 2001 - 15:59

NUKE EM'!!! NUKE EM'!!!!

RE: WTC | from sylvanSep 19 2001 - 11:56

i agree. this whole situation is a bummer. i like your style of definistration. you make being insulted a pleasant experience.

RE: WTC | from sylvaniaSep 19 2001 - 08:37

I completely agree this country is by no means innocent. This country or I should really say the political leaders. By no means do I want to catogorize the american people with the wheelings and dealings of the CIA . It is just out right frustrating that innocent people (not in the biblical sense for those die hards) have to die becuase of this seemingly never ending chess game. Where the hell go we go from here?
Sorry about the angst, it seems to be spreading to my toes.

RE: WTC | from sylvanazi soft tacoSep 19 2001 - 08:15

ha! i see islamic people prostylitizing all the time! in fact on my corner there's one who prostylitizes herself for only $2.50!!!

RE: WTC | from me againSep 19 2001 - 08:02

the term "soft nazi" is defined as "one who is unwilling to definistrate oneself for the sake of eugenics". for further reference please see the term "media lapdog".

RE: WTC | from sylvanSep 19 2001 - 07:59

control your self man. please! for the sake of any raghead which comes across this message board, i should be embarassed to be on the same page as you. jesus people give me the creeps. that is one thing that i respect about islamic people ...they do not prostylitize. but, for a moment let us attempt a more objective approach. could we not look at this situation conversely, who is the thorn in whos' side really. this country has been imposing itself on other sovereign states internal conflicts since it's inception. wether with the fig leaf of liberty, and justice for all! or our new apeshit ideology of humanitarian intervention. for example our failed CIA coup on the iraqi government passed off as a cause for human rights. the U.S. government has been supporting turkeys' leading regime for years and undoubtedly was aware of their mass executions of the kurdish people. and our recent attacks upon yugoslavia, KlA nothing more than a front for U.S. intervention. I'm not saying these people aren't assholes, i'm saying we're asshole too. It's fucked up, but by no mean is this surge of hatred and violence an "arab" problem exclusively. look at your own country man, people are getting killed for thier fucking shoes. have a nice day. and no spell check please.

RE: WTC | from sylvanSep 19 2001 - 07:59

control your self man. please! for the sake of any raghead which comes across this message board, i should be embarassed to be on the same page as you. jesus people give me the creeps. that is one thing that i respect about islamic people ...they do not prostylitize. but, for a moment let us attempt a more objective approach. could we not look at this situation conversely, who is the thorn in whos' side really. this country has been imposing itself on other sovereign states internal conflicts since it's inception. wether with the fig leaf of liberty, and justice for all! or our new apeshit ideology of humanitarian intervention. for example our failed CIA coup on the iraqi government passed off as a cause for human rights. the U.S. government has been supporting turkeys' leading regime for years and undoubtedly was aware of their mass executions of the kurdish people. and our recent attacks upon yugoslavia, KlA nothing more than a front for U.S. intervention. I'm not saying these people aren't assholes, i'm saying we're asshole too. It's fucked up, but by no mean is this surge of hatred and violence an "arab" problem exclusively. look at your own country man, people are getting killed for thier fucking shoes. have a nice day. and no spell check please.

RE: WTC | from sylvaniaSep 19 2001 - 07:33

Sylvan you are full of rhetorical bullshit. "soft nazis". So where did you steal that term?

RE: WTC | from timSep 19 2001 - 05:14

I think the Bible sums everything up pretty well. In the book of Genesis, one can read of the birth of the arab nation - the birth of Ishmael, son of Abraham and Hagar. (the Jewish nation was born of Abraham and Sarah). Due to Abraham's lack of faith and patience in God, we will forever have this thorn in our side - the arabs. As always, how true are the words of God's Holy Book, especially here, when speaking of Ishmael:

Genesis 16:12

"He shall be a wild man;
His hand shall be against every
man, and every man's hand against
him. And he shall dwell in the
presence of all his brethren."

RE: WTC | from SamSep 18 2001 - 19:27

Sylvan seems to be the only person making sense on this issue. ahhh no spelling mistakes.

RE: WTC | from SamSep 18 2001 - 19:17

You spelt else wrong.

RE: WTC | from sylvanSep 18 2001 - 17:23

your favorite author is a halfwit. and all this talk of "feeling safe" you people are soft nazis. maybe you should all definistrate yourselves for the sake of eugenics.

RE: WTC | from King GeorgeSep 18 2001 - 14:34

Hey Sam,
I know they're (correct spelling of what you wrote, "there") real people, but in order for things to operate in a civil way there has to be sacrifices...all throughout history this has been proven. I'm not an advocate of murder of innocent people, but what the hell ese are we supposed to do?

RE: WTC | from SamSep 17 2001 - 18:28

Yeah King George that'd really solve everything!! There NOT Americans so there NOT real people.

RE: WTC | from King GeorgeSep 17 2001 - 16:13

I do not find the article racist in the least bit...
is it not utterly obvious that Middle-Eastern countries cannot govern themselves in a civil way? These people have been killing EACHOTHER for centuries in the name of "ALLAH." They call it a holy war. Bullshit. I say we just level the whole Middle East with nukes and take these poor bastards out of their misery. They'll end up either killing eachother off or raising more Anti-American terrorists. Please let me know how you feel everyone.

RE: WTC | from peaceSep 17 2001 - 11:07

another timely article:

http://www.natcath.com/NCR_Online/archives/100298/100298l.htm

RE: WTC | from trevSep 17 2001 - 10:37

Since one of the causes of the attack was the hostile occupation of Palestinian territory, do you really think annexing the whole country is going to solve anything. If the US really thought that the Israelis needed a safe haven, why don't we give the Texas?

Or if you believe that the Israeli's have claim to the land there, maybe all Americans of non-native descent should move back to whichever country the emigrated from.

RE: WTC | from eraserheadSep 13 2001 - 09:30

This is definteley one of the most digusting acts in the history of this world. I am not sure what should be done. Certainly people should pay for these horrible crimes. As to who and how many, who is to say.
After it is all done though there will more than likely be another leader to follow this path of terrorism. As corny as it sounds it is a neverending balance of good and evil. But this is the worst I have seen in my lifetime.

RE: WTC | from christianSep 13 2001 - 05:20

i agree, adam. while nyc (and the pentagon) may have been ground zero this time, who has any assurance that any other major U.S. city isn't the next target? i live in philadelphia and i can't say that i nor any of my neighbors feel safe here now. but for US citizens to live in fear is obviously what these fucking terrorists are after, and as a country we shouldn't give them that satisfaction. maybe i'm rambling but this affects us all - we should all speak up.

update to tuesday | from adam in nycSep 13 2001 - 00:42

It has be announced that toxic levels of asbestos were in the air following the aftermath of the wtc fall. Yesterday i saw on the news that the girders were in fact coated with the toxin in the construction process on Tuesday the day of the event. Today it was confirmed and now city officials say that the levels are low in the air around the city now, but that those trying to save our heros lives are in grave danger of the fatal effects in days to come as they sift through it all to find our dead. And a little bit of local insider info. As many of you have seen on TV, over 400 firefighters and policemen are reported missing in action. Today on the local news only, they went through several fire stations that are reported now vacant! Each station usually consisting of 20 or more men and women, now vacant, one after the other. It is a state of emergency not only from terrorist threat in NYC, but by the fact that our fire squad is cut down to little more than half. It's a scary thought to think about if anything further happens here, we'll not recover for a long long time. I have heard from my friend who did work in the wtc 1 on the 5th floor and he made it out okay, but he and his new wife have left NYC in the early hours of wednesday and drove back to Michigan as a result. They will return in three weeks time to pack up their things and leave permanently. We are losing one of our closest friends here. This truly affects everyone and their ability to feel safety. I found myself debating much the same thing yesterday and today i have decided that i will not be fleeing the city and the life i have here. I am no safer here than i am in middle America. If terrorist can take our commercial airliners and use them as weapons against us, no one is safe no matter where they live. One can only hope that they will not be the next target. I do not feel safe, but I'll be damned if i am going to let this change my way of life or my personal freedoms.

RE: WTC | from CIRCUSSep 11 2001 - 22:07

I read the Orson Scott Card article on today's disaster.
Granted, it may not be the type of posting generally displayed here, but today was not a general day.
The article was disturbing , not in the tone of the author but in the realism of his words.

War is something no one wants to face and something most of us on this message board have not had to deal with as closely as the threat appeared today, but unfortunately may be an inevitable descision.

Noticing the length of the article, I actually read the responses first to find out if their was logic and reason in it. I found the article to be disheartening, yet true. I must disagree though to the comment made by "disappointed", who felt this article tried to mask apparent racism against the palestinians. I did not feel that to be true, his statements were simply 'matter of facts' that unfortunately TODAY proved to us to be real.

RE: WTC | from adam in nycSep 11 2001 - 21:05

I personally agree with OSC's article. I feel that this would be the only way to secure freedom in America and throughout Europe and Asia. I hate the idea of war and a possible repeat of Vietnam but this directly affects us all as a nation. To ignore would be to show weakness, not tolerance and understanding. Certainly this isn't a call to arms that just started, this has been ringing in America's ears for 7 years now. When will we say that's it. I've had it!! Well i had it today when i stood on the street of my great city and watched the southern portion of it burn and tumble to the ground with a loss of a friend. And the fact that not both buildings could have been evacuated completely, 400 firefighters are reported missing and assumed dead as well as over 80 police officers. We have called a state if emergency not just due to terrorist threat, but due to the threat that there is no longer a sufficient amount of NYFD. not enough firefighters for whatever happens next. My city is crippled as well my feeling of safety and security. I now find my self debating on staying here and waiting it out or moving back to middle America where it at least feels a little bit safer and distant from the terror i experienced today. I hope non of you ever feel what i feel and what the families of those fighting to save my city and dc feel.

RE: WTC | from disappointedSep 11 2001 - 20:32

the anti-palestinian/arab racism in this piece is disappointing to see, and especially disappointing to see on this message board.

the attempts to mask this racism with broad moral statements ("There is no excuse for any kind of attack on or abuse of Arabs or Muslims"... "We have nothing against the religion or people of Islam") is undermined by the tenor of the author's language in his suggested treatment of palestinians ("The Palestinian Authority... is not ready to take its place among the nations of the world, and the Palestinian people have no leaders that can be negotiated with for any purpose"... "No Palestinian self-government should be allowed at any level, and Palestinian territory should be under martial law.").

The treatment of Palestine constrasts sharply with the treatment of the United States. The implication in the text that the US is holy and chaste is inaccurate and offensive to victims of US aggression, US arms sales, and US-sanctioned genocide in places like Iraq and East Timor.

this is a complex and difficult situation that will not be solved or served by exploiting agitated emotions to increase the loudness of the call to arms. more thought than went into this piece needs to go into a decision to go to war.

what happened today was horrible. racist notions of war are also horrible.

RE: WTC | from adamSep 11 2001 - 17:40

Convincing

RE: WTC | from robert dSep 11 2001 - 17:05

oh my god, how true this rings!!!

RE: WTC | from here is the article, it's important!!!Sep 11 2001 - 17:04

When we find ourselves in a war we can't win, we must either capitulate or change it to the kind of war we can win.

If we find and destroy the perpetrators, we only make them martyrs and guarantee that others will attack us again. But if we absolutely defeat their goals and punish those who support and protect them, we can put an end to this sort of thing once and for all.

Those who attacked us are not terrorists. They are soldiers, and we are at war.

We have been at war for years, and it has been only the stupidity and selfishness of our leadership and the complacency of the American people that prevented us from recognizing this after the bombings in East Africa or the attack on an American warship in Yemen.

We can't fight terrorism using terrorist methods. If we were the kind of people they are, our response to 11 September would be to destroy the holy sites of Islam in Saudi Arabia and to nuke Baghdad, Teheran, and Damascus. Those would be monstrous acts, crimes against innocent people -- the kinds of things our enemies do.

We aren't like that.

America's leaders are calling for patience, for a measured response to the acts of war we suffered on 11 September. They are right.

There is no excuse for any kind of attack on or abuse of Arabs or Muslims. Give it a moment's thought, and realize that American Muslims and Arabs who have chosen to come live among us here in the United States are not our enemies and are as grieved as we are. Most Muslims throughout the world, except where they have been systematically lied to by fanatic leaders, do not hate America and do not have murder in their hearts.

But when America's leaders call this a "terrorist act" and promise that we will find out who is responsible and punish them and only them, they are completely wrong.

First, there is some likelihood that we will never get legal proof of who did it, and strong likelihood that even if we do, we won't have any way of finding the perpetrators and striking against them in any meaningful way. Useless attacks like the famous Monica's-dress bombings of Khartoum and camps in Afghanistan will accomplish nothing.

And if our response reveals us to be helpless or weak-willed, we can expect more and worse terrorist attacks in the future, as rival terrorist organizations take courage from this action and try to outdo each other in the violence and symbolic power of their attacks on the U.S.

But let's say we actually confirm that Bin Laden masterminded this. Suppose we actually find out where he is and send military force against him and kill him and his followers. What have we accomplished? He would forever be a martyr and hero to the fanatics and fundamentalists of the Islamic world, and in his name such attacks would go on and on.

These fanatics do not fear death. Killing them accomplishes less than nothing. It actually advances their cause.

The appropriate response is not to punish them, but to deprive them absolutely of the objective they desire.

We Only Win by Making Them Lose

What do our enemies want? They want the destruction of Israel and the establishment of a Palestinian state. They want to have all of the Muslim world ruled by Islamic fundamentalists under strict Islamic law.

So what is our response?

In consultation with Israel, we stop pressuring them to negotiate with the Palestinian Authority. It is obvious now that the Palestinian Authority has neither the ability nor the will to control its supporters. It is not ready to take its place among the nations of the world, and the Palestinian people have no leaders that can be negotiated with for any purpose.

Therefore, as a direct response to the attack of 11 September, the United States and Israel should jointly undertake the immediate and complete occupation of all Palestinian territory, the arrest and imprisonment of all Palestinian leaders to await trial after a thorough investigation of their role in the acts of war that have already taken place against Israel, and the permanent incorporation of all Palestinian territory into the state of Israel. No Palestinian self-government should be allowed at any level, and Palestinian territory should be under martial law.

At the same time, the United States should announce that any nation that harbors or funds the activities of any of the active anti-American groups, including but not limited to bin-Laden's, will be considered to be in one of two conditions: Either they are unable to govern their own territory, in which case we will send troops to govern their uncontrolled territory for them; or they are in support of these activities, in which case we will regard ourselves as being in a state of war with them.

Then we must act, as quickly as possible, accordingly. No more of the childish, dangerous, and cowardly kinds of responses that typified Bill Clinton's disastrous presidency. No more bombings from high altitudes. No more withholding of our troops for fear of casualties.

Our enemies have shown us that we will suffer casualties no matter what we do. Indeed, while our losses of 11 September are not yet known as I write this, it is possible that we may have suffered as many deaths as our troops sustained in an average year of the Vietnam War.

So instead of tolerating civilian casualties on our own territory, we will risk suffering casualties among our troops and send them into active combat -- because our troops, at least, can fight back.

President Bush should make his best effort to win the support of NATO and other pertinent nations, and at least the noninterference of others, like Russia.

Terrorist-harboring and terrorist-sponsoring nations like Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, Libya, Sudan, and Syria should be given twenty-four hours to declare whether they wish to be at war with us, or to stand aside while our troops enter their territory to obliterate the terrorist installations we know are there. Those would be their only two choices, and if they don't respond we will consider ourselves to be at war with them.

We Can Only Win If We Wage War

Such a program of war would not be easy. We are talking about a widespread war at the level of World War II. Even though our enemies control only a few governments, it is likely that such actions would virtually force other Islamic nations to give at least lip service to the idea of joining in a war against the U.S.

We should not be surprised to find Saudi Arabia and Egypt, for instance, declaring war on us. However, we should recognize that they have their political constraints and we will take no action against them, despite their declaration of war, until and unless we see that they are providing financial aid, military support, or sanctuary to our actual enemies.

It is also quite likely that China would immediately offer support to our enemies or try to take advantage of our preoccupation with them by making some attempt against Taiwan. Therefore we will have to strengthen our defenses of Taiwan and be prepared to shut down China's international commerce -- and let them know that we will act against them if they make the slightest attempt to support our enemies.

Then, using our best planning and taking normal appropriate care to preserve the lives of American soldiers, we should select one or more of these nations as a first objective to invade and control. There are reasons for and against each of the nations I have listed, and no campaign would be easy. We have heard far too much about being "the world's only superpower" while being told of none of the costs of such a role.

But we are no longer going to worry about being "the world's policeman." We are a nation under attack, and we will defend ourselves by destroying our enemies' ability to make war against us. We will allow them no haven.

Most important, however, is to turn this into the kind of war we can fight. An investigation to find individual

WORLD TRADE CENTER TODAY | from adam in nycSep 11 2001 - 17:02

to have a good idea of what is to come i found a website where my favorite author orson scott card posted a statement about what to expect next. here is the link to the exact page http://www.ornery.org/essays/2001-09-11-1.html or go to www.hatrack.com and click on todays statement.

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