INXS is on tonight | from CarrieJul 25 2005 - 21:39
For INXS fans it is on tonight. I think a couple of the contestants are from Idaho.
For INXS fans it is on tonight. I think a couple of the contestants are from Idaho.
duly noted. ...oops...
Hey doctor, the quickest way to get a thread to disappear is to not reply to it.
Nothing poisonous about it. It's been a productive and enlightening discussion about a band who had a good long time in the spotlight.
It's always interesting to talk about music in the context of personae, commercialism, etc. Yes, it's true that Idaho sound nothing like them, but they're both in the same nasty, fickle business. Maybe somebody gained some insight from the debate.
we need to be "cured" of the poison this thread has wrought to the idaho community for the entire two month duration of it.
"The Cure"[american] is now on Soulseek.
Reminds me a little of when Disentigration came out...how I broke a lengthy vinyl streak (3+ years) to buy the 'cassette', for the 3 or 4 bonus tracks. Oh well, I soon complemented it with the Staring at the Sea (+ B-sides and 2 A-sides!) and Faith (+ Carnage Visors) cassettes...Thus began my gradual disaffection with vinyl :/
Well, it looks like they're just doing it on purpose to keep their "mystical B-side" thing going. Really annoying...
I suppose most of you know by now that someone has seen fit to exclude a track (the last one, to boot.) from the american edition of The Cure's new release. From Billboard: ""Going nowhere"[the last track] wraps things up with a sad, dreamy piano production." Of course, one could designate this as a "bonus track", but that would belie convention; The american release is the ONLY one without this song. What gives? --More than likely, I am going to be purchasing the vinyl (contains the said track +1 extra) or an (hopefully inexpensive) import, despite feeling a little silly for doing so.
Rolling Stone, July 2004
Itís the grooviest thing, itís a perfect dream.....the new album is their most adventurous and passionate since Disintegration.
Deluxe edition includes 30 minute Making of the Record DVD. Album produced by Robert Smith and Ross Robinson.
It was a long, long time ago, mind....
I loved the Cure. Once.
And the hair, and the image, and the song. Like some archaeologist digging at the eighties. Like they just dug Up 'Head On The Door' and asked Uncle Fester to raid the make-up box and wear a wig.
After electrocution and drowning.
After he'd just been at an 'eat all you can restaurant'.
And told him to rewrite 'Inbetween days'.
Without interest. Or passion.
I thought ol' Smithee was supposed to have ended the Cure and be working on a solo record?
Fuck, it's just like they never went away.
Just saw the Cure on Jonathan Ross here playing 'End Of The World'.
The song was... nondescript.
The lyrics were desperate.
What was that about the hip noo-metal producer? I get the noo-metal/noo-goth connection, but I wasn't expecting such a deep fucking grave for them. But then, maybe the end of the world is nigh.
And still, despite the passage of time, despite the ravages of global stadium burgers and english sausage the now truly 'fat' bob trowels on the lipstick and eye shadow.
Like he can't let go.
The cover art sucks.
"One thing I'm not fond of is when a band updates its sound in search of a hit. Isn't that what's happening with the Cure?"
I can finally say that I truly agree with you. : )
Again, it's all about discovering an artist's inherent gifts. If you can grasp that and stick with it, a change in direction may be easier to understand and live with.
But if all you want is for your favorite band to keep making the same record over and over again, you're bound to be disappointed. Or they're apt to be terrible.
One thing I'm not fond of is when a band updates its sound in search of a hit. Isn't that what's happening with the Cure?
Exactly. Look at Mark Kozelek. A lot of his fans hate or are really disappointed with his newer stuff. Is it different from his old stuff? Yes. Does it suck? Maybe. Maybe not.
My brain's starting to hurt. What a cool discussion. All I'm going to say about Cure fans disliking some of their music is that they've done a lot of different styles of music. Whenever *any* band ventures into a lot of different styles, there will be a lot of pissed off fans. I think that's the one point that hasn't been made yet.
Poopypants: By your undulant logic, the beeping sound of the crane next door to my office holds just as much potential meaning as does a Mingus solo. I'll give you this: As beings with will and sensibilities we are free to assign meaning to anything we choose.
But I don't think we're here to talk about how great that crane sound is. It's more likely that we want beauty in our lives, and we've learned that we can acquire that beauty from music. And it's true (and subjective): Some music holds beauty, and some holds shit.
I never set out to "prove" anything about the Cure. I wanted to point out that even their most ardent fans have major problems with some of their work. To me, that says a lot about this band.
Maybe what they thought was art turns out to have been just a ridiculous pose. Maybe everybody grew up. Who knows? It's important to be a careful listener, that's all. Check yourself before you wreck yourself -- I believe KRS One said that.
And "Wicked" -- what is this business about appealing to authority? What does that mean? If declaring that I've had enough of people acting like idiots during club shows makes me an authoritarian, I'll gladly wear that tag. Get your smoke and cheap talk away from my art.
Stinkybuns, you're absolutley right. No one can win. I'm just fascinated by the specious logic in "Chris's" arguments. It's bad enough to appeal to authority, but when the authority is Jimmy Fallon, it's just sad.
music is art. there is no black or white. no right or wrong. all of you are wrong. no side can be taken, as it is ALL completely subjective. period. end of story. because of its artistic nature, one can (claim to) get just as much "meaning" from 40 minutes of Merzbow noise as from 2.5 minutes of a vapid dancefloor VengaBoys song as from a deep, crafted Dead Can Dance epic. this whole argument is unwinnable. you cannot "prove" that the Cure is any more shallow than Alex can "prove" that the Cure is deep and meaningful. this is the price we pay for pointing our hearts and minds towards art rather than, say, sports, where there is definitive black and white (winners, losers, etc.)
this argument will go in circles until the sun collapses in on itself. so give up. everyone is wrong. including me, and my opinion about it. what a vicious circle.
I'm sure they would. They'd wonder why Mark doesn't poof up his hair -- he'd look so much more rock star.
-Kozelek talks during shows because he's uptight, that would be my guess. He's a perfectionist working in an out-of-control environment.
-At least AC/DC fans don't claim their band is more than it is. Can't say the same for the Cure crowd.
-Look, the critic's job is to point out the strengths and weaknesses in the music. Trying to squeeze Smashing Pumpkins out of Idaho is absurd, I'll agree, but there might be validity in seeing Jeff's music another way.
Where I think you've hit on something important is the politically loaded criticism that's out there. It gets printed every day, and it's damaging to the form. Journalism should expect more from music critics, and music critics should know better than to push a personal agenda via a review.
-I didn't start the Cure fan stereotyping -- that was Jimmy Fallon on SNL, with his Cinnabon goth guy. It's the best thing he ever did.
I seriously doubt any Cure fan on this board would talk and smoke during a Koz concert, Chris. Go stereotyping!!!!!
"I love your blast at critics, too. Wow. Did you ever consider that some songs go wrong because the author is too stupid or high or controlling to put things right? "'Hey, dude, lay off me, man. That song was MEANT to be sung while I have mac and cheese in my mouth.'"
I'll agree with you except for the above remarks. Maybe you think a song sucks for one reason or another, but critics should review music for what it is, not what they wish it was. Some people review bands like Idaho, wishing they were the Smashing Pumpkins or something. "This sucks because it's too slow and I wish there were female vocals instead of male vocals and dirty guitars instead of clean guitars and some 80's synthpop lines thrown in there." Well then you shouldn't be reviewing it, moron! These kinds of comments are utterly worthless and void of any constructive criticism whatsoever.
I see: Cure fan = careless listener = person who talks and smokes at Mark Kozelek club show. And substitute Doors fan, Depeche Mode fan, Eminem fan (a remarkable grouping) for Cure fan and get the same results. What about AC/DC fan? That would explain why Kozelek talks so much during his shows. Hmmmmm.
What's so remarkable about it? It's an observation that some people simply treat music as just another form of entertainment. They aren't careful listeners. In a live setting, they're the ones most likely to disrupt the experience for everybody else.
"I'm always amazed when fans swoon over obviously mediocre efforts. The Cure, Depeche Mode, Eminem, the Doors -- there are scads of them out there. It can only mean that their fans aren't really listening; it's music as mood setter or head turner. These are the same people who talk and smoke during a Mark Kozelek club show."
I've always wondered who those people were. That's a remarkable inference.
Neither will I. Alex, OF COURSE songs are open to personal interpretation, but some are just so badly wrought -- poorly arranged, sloppily written, boringly played, or just nonsensical (and not on purpose) -- that they deserve a public horse whipping.
For example, you might think the line "I will always love you" in "Love Song" is effective, and maybe it means a lot to you. Fine. But think about it harder, and you'll realize how ineffective R.S. is in DELIVERING the line. It's not his mope that makes it bad (that's his style), it's that the sentiment feels so false. He seems to be nodding out, but the band plays it with unusual energy and spontaneity. There's cognitive dissonance there. Is that an intentional effect? I doubt it.
Now compare that line to the same damn line delivered by Dolly Parton in her song of that title. (Her version only -- Whitney Houston's does NOT apply.) She sounds wounded, beat up, but sure of herself when she expresses the core emotion. The clouds clear, the melody buoys the sentiment, and the arrangement, a simple, classic example of late countrypolitan, provides just the right framework for such an artless yet complicated sentiment. The song works on every level. That takes it into the realm of art.
Now, which song has actual meaning?
As for gleaning emotion, symbolism and the rest from instrumental music: Well, millions of people listen to it. I feel fairly certain they are finding meaning there.
Music theory tells you that instrumental structure lends weight to ideas. That is the power of music, simply put.
I love your blast at critics, too. Wow. Did you ever consider that some songs go wrong because the author is too stupid or high or controlling to put things right? "Hey, dude, lay off me, man. That song was MEANT to be sung while I have mac and cheese in my mouth."
You're also off the mark about R.S. just doing what he wants. One of the reasons the Cure's '90s output has been so critically pulverized is he just doesn't seem to be into it. Yet, he's still kicking it with the giant hair and Revlon. Are you sure his heart is in the band? Or could there be Lear jet bills to pay?
No argument on the "everybody rips off" assertion. It's true, always has been. But the bands I mentioned did a poor job of it -- they didn't hide it, and they capitalized on things that should be sacrosanct in music - namely persona and attitude.
I saved the best for last because you're right about it -- Robert Smith definitely leaves his lyrics open to interpretation. To wit, from "Let's Go to Bed":
Let me take your hand
I'm shaking like milk
Ah -- one of the dumbest, most head-scratching couplets in all of rock music. Inexcusable.
no, Drew. i won't agree to that.
I'm just now stumbling into this discussion. Both sides have made very good points and stated their cases well. It looks to me like you'll all have to agree to disagree.
Also, EVERY band "rips off" another band. That's what leads to evolution. Do you have any idea how many of the greatest classical composers ripped off each others' work and took it in new directions? The Cure are obviously inspired by Joy Division, as are American Music Club (apparent on 1st CD), but neither band sounds rip-offs of Joy Division. Ian Curtis was heavily influenced by Lou Reed, yet sounded nothing like Lou Reed. One day, the Rapture and the Strokes (God help the latter stop playing music altogether) probably won't sound anything like the Cure. And on and on and on...
Who cares what his songs mean? Do all songs have to directly *mean* something? Do you listen to instrumental music and and try to find meaning to lyrics that aren't there? And what happened to deciphering your own meaning from things? If you want music explained to you, listen to Top 40 pop music, not the Cure. What's the point in critizing songs about not having meaning when the songwriter purposely left them open to interpretation? It's like music critics saying crap like, "Oh, this song would be so much better if it was faster!" Well, it's not faster because it's not meant to be faster. For someone who's so concerned with meaningful music, you should understand that the guy is just doing what he wants to do. His lyrics are his lyrics, and he's not trying to impress anyone, just satisfy himself. When you do otherwise, out comes a bunch of pretentious garbage that *truly* doesn't mean anything but record sales.
Everybody on this board states their opinion as fact. I don't have a problem with that as long as they can back up what they say with reliable information.
For example, it's a fact that none of the bands I described as mediocre were "the only ones doing what they were doing when they were doing it."
The Cure ripped off important elements of Joy Division. Depeche Mode stole from the industrial crowd. The Doors were a tiresome melange of Beat poet apocalypse and Chicago blues. Eminem took his cues from classic hip hop and what? Vegas? Jerry Lewis?
So, don't give them credit they don't deserve. Rather, imagine how much more enlightening and powerful rock music would be right now if it weren't for these distracting clowns. Spend some time exploring the deeper roots of the music. For every Jim Morrison out there, there's an Arthur Lee who deserves much more credit.
And again: What do Robert Smith songs *mean* anyway?
"Mediocre" or not, those bands have strongly influenced popular music, and if not for them, a lot of bands you listen to might not even exist. You might think they suck now, but they were the only ones doing what they were doing when they were doing it. Calling them "bad bands" is pure indie music snobbery. It's like saying Nick Drake sucks now because Iron and Wine is around (bad comparison, I know).
For future reference, you're points might come across better if you didn't state your opinion as fact. Just because you don't like a band, that doesn't make their entire catalog meaningless. Obviously, it's meaningful to a LOT of people.
Alex: Instead of "hookless," try "meaningless." That describes their entire catalog.
Brian: Bands I love definitely can do wrong. It happens all the time. But when I recognize their inherent talent, their gift for expressing something that informs my life, they have my unbending support. Later, if I find myself actively loathing something they've done, I'll go back and reexamine their entire catalog -- what was it I liked about them in the first place? I think that's healthy. It also keeps my shelves cleared out for new music.
For me, loving music is like following a great ball player. You don't expect him to rope it into the stands every time, but you are mighty impressed by his batting average.
I'm always amazed when fans swoon over obviously mediocre efforts. The Cure, Depeche Mode, Eminem, the Doors -- there are scads of them out there. It can only mean that their fans aren't really listening; it's music as mood setter or head turner. These are the same people who talk and smoke during a Mark Kozelek club show.
Then again, Eno argued that bad bands end up in the garden as food for the soil, and out of that mix can come something better.
Here's hoping the Cure set it to rest and let somebody else improve on their game.
Chris, the despise comment was aimed at songs in general from bands, not directly aimed at Cure songs that i don't like. there is probably only
Not to mention most of the b-sides, a few of which you included.
I'll start: The Snakepit, Icing Sugar, The Kiss, Pornography, Give Me It, Homesick, Disintegration, Plainsong, Carnage Visors, The Same Deep Water As You, Splintered in Her Head, Untitled, Play, Ocean, Jupiter Crash, Out of This World, A Reflection, Three, A Final Sound, Seventeen Seconds, At Night, The Holy Hour, All Cats Are Gray, Faith, The Drowning Man, A Short Term Effect, Siamese Twins, The Figurehead, Cold, Wailing Wall, Sinking, If Only Tonight We Could Sleep, How Beautiful You Are, Like Cockatoos, Closedown, Fear of Ghosts, Too Late, To Wish Impossible Things, Trust, Treasure, Watching Me Fall, There Is No If, 39, Bloodflowers...
I'll definitely admit that many Cure songs that used to move me don't do a damn thing for me now. But many of them still move me and continue to grow on me. To each his own, I suppose.
Regarding hooks vs. songs: A song is a song. A hook is the catchy chorus(usually) of a song. I could make a HUGE list of hookless Cure songs. Sure the singles are hooky and bland, but...
You used the word "like," not me. I never said you have to like all of a band's songs in order to like a band. But I think it's passing strange that anybody could love and defend a band whose work includes music that they "despise."
It's also telling that many of the most hardcore Cure fans on this site have described their love of the band in just those terms.
Perhaps what's happening is at least some of these fans are having a new reckoning with R.S. & Co. Maturity is a wonderful thing.
And yes, "Killing an Arab" increased their profile considerably. But the first Cure record to have a real commercial impact was Staring at the Sea, a collection of their -- yikes! -- singles. That was '86.
As for having heard Disintegration, yep, I've heard it and thought it was marginally interesting. Probably the best of a bad lot.
Oh: I'll help you start re songs vs. song hooks. A song moves you. A hook moves your ass. Robert Smith never figured out the difference.
"Killing an Arab" did not get them famous. They weren't "successful" until either Head on the Door or Kiss Me x3 (can't remember which one at the moment). And they didn't have songs, just song hooks? Not sure where to even start there...
Have you ever listened to Disintegration?
Are you saying that to like a band, you have to like all of their songs? If so, I guess I don't really like any bands. I despise "New Jersey." Fuck RHP, right?
This is worth pursuing because of your word choice: "despise." If you actively or even passively despise a band's song(s), it's time to rethink what you liked about them in the first place.
The Cure is a golden example of a band that became popular as a result of savvy marketing -- an unconventional look, a few passable song hooks (note that I didn't say songs, because they never had any), and a revolving line-up to keep things interesting. Throw in some pseudo controversial lyrics (ooh -- "Killing an Arab") and you have everybody jumping on the train.
Problem is, it sucked. Loudly. They were/are one of the least able bands to ever make it to the front ranks of pop music. They had no depth, nothing to say, not even a clever stance behind the shabby pulchritude. The vacuity was enormous, just like the hair.
Tell me one thing anybody ever learned from a Cure song -- learned intellectually, emotionally, intuitively, etc. There's nothing there. But Robert Smith and his mates got stinking rich from this staged emptiness.
You despise some of their songs, but you want to defend them?
the Cure. overrated? or bad? come on.
You know you're dealing with an overrated band when even its staunchest, most hopeful fans will admit that there are some songs they just absolutely can't stand. Doesn't mean the band is bad at choosing singles, it just means the band is bad.
Robert Smith: The Tammy Faye of fake alt rock.
Auf Der Maur is brutal.
I listened to that interview thing, and I was pretty surprised at the bands he mentioned wanting to watch at Coachella. I knew he liked Mogwai, but he used to hate so many bands, especially the Cure copies. So I can't believe he likes the Rapture and Bright Eyes. Times have certainly changed.
It's cool that Melissa Auf Der Maur is getting some huge exposure. If only she'd get I D A H O up there with her...
Time to give her a call, Jeff. ; )
Not sure is this is news to anyone. From ChartAttack.com: [Ever wonder if The Cureís Robert Smith is bothered by the new rash of bands that are gaining critical attention by "borrowing" from his bandís signature sound. The answer, judging from The Cureís recently announced touring mates , is no ó in fact, he wants to help give those new bands a leg up.
The Cure have just announced plans to headline a touring festival ó sort of like a Lollapalooza for the neo-goth set. The tour, dubbed Curiosa (ha!) will set sail in late July and will stay on the road for slightly over a month. According to MTV.com the tour will stick stateside with no Canadian dates, but with shows close to the border in cities like New York (July 31), Detroit (August 11) and Chicago (August 12), itís a perfect excuse for a good old summer road trip. More dates are expected to be announced soon, so keep your eye on ChartAttack to see if any Canadian stops are announced.
Now, here comes the fun part. Joining The Cure on the Curiosa mainstage will be critical darlings The Rapture (who get more than their fair share of Cure comparisons), Interpol and Mogwai. The tour will also feature a second stage with a revolving cast of artists including Melissa Auf Der Maur, Cooper Temple Clause, Muse, Thursday, Cursive and Head Automatic.
The tour is part of a major 2004 resurgence in Cure mania. Last weekend the band played Californiaís Coachella Festival to fantastic reviews (judging from photos, by the way, Smithís hair is bigger than ever). The band are plotting to release a new, self-titled studio album on June 29. The disc is The Cureís first album since 2000ís Bloodflowers.]
Needless to say, I dont care much for this lineup! I think stalwarts like Clan of Xymox, and Breathless would be more coherent selections. I can understand The Rapture though; The Good Life would have been an equally winsome take on Robert's vocals. Not to speak of the notorious The Essence! ;)
According to allmusic.com Ross [Russ?] Robinson also produced 'Hard to Swallow' by Vanilla Ice!!!
After listening to that interview, it's like...I still respect what the guy's doing...but I'm just not diggin the music at all. I think it's great that they recorded the album as a live band and everything, and I'm excited for all that stuff, but the end result just ain't what it used to be. Oh well, I still think the Cure's awesome and I probably always will, even if they do turn into a nu-metal band. Aw, I just puked again...
russ robinson. producer. ROOTS by Sepultura.
Thanks for the link Codreanu. I think there's one song there that I might end up liking. The interview is the only thing worthwhile on that page.
I think I just threw up a little.
Alex, if i'm not mistaken, the Cure's new production is being handle by Russ Robinson who's produced - brace yourself - Korn and Limp Bizkit.
I hate "friday I'm in love" but I think "the 13th" is really funny b/c it's just meant to be. And the music's really not bad if you don't mind Latin type stuff.
And I agree that there are great songs on Wish and Wild Mood Swings. The Wish B-sides combined with the good songs from the album would make a wonderful CD. Same goes for Wild Mood Swings.
A nu-metal producer??? That CANNOT be good.
Personally, I'm glad that there are only nine songs on Bloodflowers. When you have multiple songs over the five minute mark, any more than that would make for a complete drawn out bore. I love Disintegration, but it's far too long to really keep its momentum the way it potentially could. And I think most people throw away about 15 or 20 songs from every album. A few of those Bloodflowers outtakes are coming out on the remastered version, which, judging by the mastering of Cut Here, will probably sound absolutely horrible.
so i haven't weighed in on this until i actually heard the new single since the Cure are one of my other favorite bands, but now i have.
A studio version (from KROQ) of The Cure's new single, along with below-par recordings of new material from the Coachella festival, can be found here: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/ChainofFlowers/audiovideo.html
Not unlike you chris, you despicable, knockdown, cheapo, complaining worm-boy.
The embarrassment of being a Cure fan starts with EVER being a Cure fan in the first place. Their stupidity is enormous. Their cynicism about their audience knows no bounds. And it's not middle age that makes it ridiculous for R.S. to wear the hair and make-up; it's the fact that that mall goth look went out 15 years ago. Imagine if you saw him in the Safeway, pushing his little cart and moaning. What a jerk.
Cut your losses and give up on this pathetic band. They have zilch to contribute.
They just posted an incomplete list of their summer tour on www.thecure.com. For a while I wasn't sure they'd do a major US tour again, since there was talk of 'Bloodflowers' being their last record. Even if their new songs aren't that great, I still think they're at their peak live, 'Trilogy' being great evidence of this.
Chris, hopefully you're right. Brian, I don't like HOTD either.
I would say the embarassment of being a Cure fan began after The Head on the Door.
Sorry, I disagree. I ran home at 12:15 to catch it, and was expecting about as much as we got - a definite single. Remember Disintegration, which spawned a top ten hitin Love Song(which I despise)...Robert vowed to break up the band if that ever happened-however, most would agree that the rest of that album is pretty dark and extraordinary. I agree that the single on Leno Friday was a little light-but not as humiliating as people have made it out to be. IMHO..
I thought it had been an embarrassment to be a Cure fan since Pornography.
Does Rob't Smiff at 45 years old still wear the smudgy lipstick and ratty hair?
So did anyone capture this, and are now hosting it somewhere to download?
They're just going through the motions now. The thing that pissed me off the most was that he recycled a line from a Wild Mood Swings b-side for the chorus of the new single. "I couldn't love you more..." Complete musical deja vu.
Not a memorable song at all. I can't even remember how a single part of it goes.
Embarrassing, to say the least. I'm still in disbelief. But all might not be lost, guys. Cure singles are always stupid. It's on purpose. I'm still hoping for a great new summer release.
just like when XYMOX said they were changing their name
There were so many Cure fans in the audience, it was really funny. Every time the camera hit the audience, you'd see Robert Smith lookalikes and Cure t-shirts everywhere. Everytime Leno said their name, there was an uproar. When it finally came time for them to play, I was really excited. Now I'm incredibly disappointed and have an uneasy feeling in my stomach about the new Cure album I've been looking forward to. In the Trilogy DVD, Robert says they're going to make the darkest album ever. I'm guessing this is what you're talking about Alex. The song they played tonight is far from it. I second everything posted above. Especially that keyboard lead. That was just awful. It's a humiliating time to be a Cure fan.
Yes, it was really that bad. It was their new single. Not sure what it's called. It was basically every Cure cliche combined into one song. And it sounded like the stuff on modern rock radio. I couldn't believe it. The chord progressions are right up there with Staind and the like. Robert's voice has gone to shit, as well, hopefully just temporarily from straining it or something. To top it all off, Roger played this analog synth that reminded me of all the new bands using them for really obnoxious sounds.
But I'd guess they'll probably be selling a lot of records; the new one's due out in late June (I think Leno might have said June 23rd).
Thank you, Jeff, for not being a sellout...
so tell us how you
What the FUCK was that??!??!
Utter bullshit. Robert sure didn't keep his promise about only writing really dark music from now on.
If that isn't the absolute WORST song on the album, I'm giving up on this band.
And talk about repeating yourself...
For Cure fans, they're playing on Leno on Friday night. Then they're being inducted into the rock walk of fame on Sunset blvd.
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